how loud is a twin? plus more. .

gilmourish

I'm guessing a twin on 1 is going to be f*&^%&^$ loud though. . . and i dont play that loud cos my 'rents aren't too keen on me playing that loud.

thats why the deluxe reverb wld be win . . amazing tone and only 22 watts, which is smaller and gigable/more bedroom friendly

NoMotion

I purchased a '72 Silverface from Old Town Music in Portland a little over a month ago. I initially went in looking for an early Super Reverb, but the one they had (an original, '65 blackface in mint condition) was a little over my budget (they were asking about $2500 for it). After demoing the Twin for about a good 2 hours or so, I couldn't imagine owning any other amp at this point. The thing has headroom for miles and stays crystalline all the way up to 10. One thing you have to bear in mind is that the amp does not break up/distort. It's completely clean/transparent. Every nuance of your playing comes through on this thing. Whether that's a good thing is entirely subjective. The plus side to this is that it takes pedals very well. It'll take more work to give you the sound you're looking for, but that's half the fun (well, at least it is for me). The myth that this amp is deafeningly loud, though, is only partially true. Sure, you can crank it and probably end up going deaf within a few minutes, but it doesn't NEED to be cranked in order to get an incredible tone out of it. At 3 or so, it's a perfect practice/bedroom amp. At 6 (as with most Fender amps), it will open up the sound a bit more; but no matter what volume you have it at, the amp projects in a way that allows it to fill the room you're in quite easily. This is an amp where you could place a mic 7-10 feet away from it and still get an amazingly deep and rich sound when recording. So yeah, don't be swayed by the "it's too loud" detractors. This is usually a a half-truth by people who expect the amp to sound like a JCM and end up cranking it to squeeze any distortion out of it. It's just not going to happen. If people researched the amp, beforehand, that myth would stay just that: a myth.

So yeah, I can definitely vouch for the twin. You'll rarely find a better sounding clean amp out there. Plus, they're built like a tank -- heavy, but insanely durable and gig-ready.

Earth

foxyloxy said: the twin would be fine for bedroom, not ideal but you would still get a killer tone out of it.
@ earth, my 50watt (solid state) 1x12 peavey @ about 4-5 kept up with my drummer when i used it and i dont really see how your would be much louder.

A 50 or 100watt solid state amp isn't going to have the sound quality and no speaker compression/distortion on full volume like a twin reverb.

Lower watt tube amps are more powerfull than higher watt solid state amps.

And if you read my first post in this thread you would no that the volume difference between 50 watts and 100watts isn't even noticable by our ears.

I used to (about 14 years ago) have my 100watt solid state 1x12 on around 8 and it was sluggish,compressed and the speaker was breaking up. Put a twin reverb on 8 and its crystal clean and clear.

Speaker compression and distortion can be avoided in both solid state and tube amps by having at least double the watts in speakers as the amp can put out. So if you have a 100watt solid state head or tube head, use a 200watt to 300watt speaker cab. This is exactly why marshall pair 100watt heads with 300watt quad boxes and why 85 watt twin reverbs have 200 watts of speakers in them.

if you are using a 100 watt head into a 100watt speaker its gonna compress and distort and sound like #### when you turn the amp up to near its limit. Its inevitable because you are nearing the speaker rating, but if the speakers are twice to three times rarted what the amps putting out its gonna stay nice and clear because the speakers aren't being pushed too hard or approaching overload.

BTW the twin reverb is ideal for both bedrooms and stadiums because it always stays crystal clean and you never get breakup from it so its gonna sound almost the same on 1/2 of 1 (which you can set it to) as it is on 8. It will sound a bit better on 8 but the overall sound is the same. Anyone that says twin reverbs are too loud for bedrooms don't know how to use volume knobs or dont actually even own a twin reverb. The twin reverb is never gonna break up like a marshall so its useless trying to get it to.

gilmourish

I'm now really tempted for a twin . . but i suppose they are quite big. . .

a deluxe reverb would be better imo.. just cos its smaller.

thinking deluxe reverb reissue now.. . maybe silverface twin.. not sure anymore ☹

anyone gonna try and persuade me to go back to my original plan and buy a blues jnr?

jacksonjackass

gilmourish said: anyone gonna try and persuade me to go back to my original plan and buy a blues jnr?

If you don't buy a blues jr, I'll eat all your coursework

Earth

Twin reverbs are the best clean amp in the world! Countless rockstars use them in stadium gigs,club gigs and even just bedroom players enjoy them. They cant be beat by any amp as far as I'm concerned.

They are heavy as all #### though so get casters on it.

No clean amp will even come close to the sound quality of a twin reverb IMO/IME!!!

You cant compare them to marshall/mesa etc cause they are apples and oranges.

IMO the best distorted amps are Mesa.

JaguarOW

gilmourish said: anyone gonna try and persuade me to go back to my original plan and buy a blues jnr?

😆

gilmourish

IM NOT SURE ANYMORE! SOMEONE HELPPP MEE!!

StevieK

I'm going to clarify a few things that have been mistated, not starting an argument, only clarifying points.

Watts are not a measure of volume, they are a measure of power. Higher wattage in the exact same circuit would mean more volume from the same circuit (if the circuit were properly modified to handle higher wattage), but from circuit to circuit the efficiency of wattage use varies greatly. Thus the same wattage rating does not produce the identical sound pressure level from amp to amp, circuit to circuit. Ohm resistence, output and power transformers, caps, speakers, etc. all affect how the wattage of a circuit translates to volume.

Sound pressure is measured in dBs, the way to know how much louder one amp is then another is not by measuring its power, but by measuring it's volume output with a sound pressure meter.

Tube amps actually begin to distort at lower volumes then Solid State Amps, Twins actually distort very early, however, the onset of distortion in a Twin circuit is so gradual that it is not easily identifiable by the human ear. What is identifiable is the extra harmonic content added by the underlying distortion of the amp. The ear is very sensitive to such harmonics, which is why a tube circuit putting out the same dBs as a similar solid state circuit can seem 2 to 3 times as loud easily, even though their sound pressure is measured the same. The extra harmonics added by the distortion and compression of the tube circuit make it sound louder, even when the overall tone still sounds "clean."

Also 85 watt twin combos are not paired with 200 watts of speakers (100 watts each), they are paired with two 50 watt Jensen C-12s. Speaker distortion is very important in amps, especially in tubes amps, even while playing "clean."

In a stereo system using speakers with more wattage then the amp is desireable to increase headroom, using underpowered speakers is not desireable because this creates distortion. The exact opposite is true for instrument amplifiers, especially guitar amplifiers. Even in a Twin Reverb, the fact that the two Jensens are only 50w is a part of the Twin's tone. The speakers actually start clipping quite early on, but once again it is so minimal the ear does not interpret this as distortion, but as an increase in volume and harmonic richness. So in fact, finding a speaker that can stay audibly "clean" but that actually distorts early is part of matching the right speaker to an amp. I personally would never place an overpowered speaker in a Twin cab, though this would increase headroom the Twin already has soo much percieved headroom that any slight unnoticed distortion from the speakers is a welcomed addition to the tone of the amp.

There are many factors in an amp circuit which determine how efficiently it uses power (watts). A 100 watt tube amp circuit that uses it's power more efficiently may sound 10x or more as loud as a 50 watt solid state amp. There's a lot more to it then the watts. Also, if we did increase the wattage in the exact same circuit of an amp to twice it's power, the sound pressure difference would generally be 3 dBs louder, a difference that is indeed negligible, but when comparing the volumes of different amplifiers, this is not the only criterion we are using.

If you're getting a Twin Reverb know what you're getting, it is great for cleans and handles light overdrive pedals well, however, I have found few high gain pedals that are able to make the rich sustaining distortion I personally prefer for heavy music.

If you're playing heavy music, you're much better off getting a lower wattage amp, and preferrably not a Fender. You'll want to look for el34 tubes in the power amp instead of 6l6s that are found in most blackface and silverface fender amps.

Fenders are great for country, r and b, blues, and anyone who wants a nice clean tone, but they are not good for gritty rock n' roll or metal.

gilmourish

i want a clean amp, my pedals do everything else.

i know bands like mogwai and a place to bury strangers use twin reverbs, so i know with dist. pedals and stuff they are amazing for post-rock and stuff. im just worried that it will be too loud for bedroom use,

Earth

someone said: FENDER:
Model Name '65 Twin Reverb

Yes they do, check it out if you dont believe me, C12K's are 100 watts each and come in 4,8, and 16 ?. If it has 2x50 watts i it it would be using C12N's not C12 K's.

The twin reverbs speakers are 8?/100watts each.

I've checked mine and it has "C12 K" printed in white paint on the rim of the basket of each, they are indeed 100 watts each.

http://jensentone.com/c12k.php

Even the specs sheet on fender.com tells you it uses C12K's, so does the owners manual.

gilmourish

how loud is a twin at 1?

foxyloxy

gilmourish said: how loud is a twin at 1?

not as loud as you might think.

gilmourish

grrr i dunno anymore. i may aswell just start saving up now and think about it in the meantime.

foxyloxy

yes. but a twin will be fine.

StevieK

someone said: FENDER:
Model Name '65 Twin Reverb

StevieK

gilmourish said: how loud is a twin at 1?

It will actually make no sound on 1, the threshold of volume on those knobs starts about 1.75-2 and there it is only slightly audible, then suddenly somewhere between 2.0 and 2.5 you go from whisper soft to pretty #### loud, and by about 5 you're near full volume, all that happens after that point is the tubes start to compress and you'll actually start to get a glassy harsh sounding mild crunch if you hit the strings hard enough that will feel like it's blowing out your eardrums.

To this day I think I still have ear damage from my first day with my twin, I plugged in a hotrodded mustang that had two hot rails pickups, turned the amp to about 6 and jumped right into the power chord section of stairway to heaven, I literally can still remember the horrible sensation in my ears and my dad started yelling, "What the #### are you doing, that thing sounds like a gunshot going off!"

Earth

Stevie K said:
It will actually make no sound on 1, the threshold of volume on those knobs starts about 1.75-2 and there it is only slightly audible, then suddenly somewhere between 2.0 and 2.5 you go from whisper soft to pretty #### loud, and by about 5 you're near full volume,

Again, not the case with the 65 TRRI (I dont know about the original though...) . In my house I run mine on 1/2-3/4 of 1 and its very audible. Sounds just the same as on 2-3 but quieter.

Up around 4-5 the sound starts to compress very,very slightly and stays that way right through to 10 but continues to get loder past 5 up to about 6.5-7.5, after than I cant hear any audible difference between that and 10.

Mines a 2006 60th anniversay edition BTW. funnily enough the only thing that makes it an anniversay edition is a fender diamond anniversary badge stuck on the back of the amp.LOL

It cost the same as the 2005 model though and is cosmetically identical.

I don't know much about silver faces or original black faces because of one fact, I don't use them. I use the RI and I only ever bother learning about the gear I actually use or potentially want to use.

If the original 65 uses C12N's then the RI would likely distort and compress a little less and have a clearer sound on loud volumes because the speakers are double the rating and can handle more than twice what the amps putting out.

Take a 100watt Marshall head for example, run it through a 100watt quad, its not gonna have the same quality as if you run it through the 300watt quad that Marshall pairs them them with.

A lot of people say "you cant beat vintage gear" and "reissues dont sound the same", welll I call snobbery on this because there was a vintage vs RI AVRI jaguar shoot out done by some guy from another forum, both sounded so identical you couldn't tell if you could actually hear differences or it was your mind playing tricks on you.

I dont believe original 65's sound 100% identical to RI 65's though, but I also dont believe the original sounds better. The same can be said with my vintage and modern EHX/SOVTEK big muff collection, I have some vintage ones that sound great but then I compare them to the BMPTW and it blows them all (vintage and RI) away. I have vintage Fenders and modern fenders, both are great and i dont believe one to be better than the other. In fact my favorite fender is a Japanese jaguar neck and body with American hardware and electronics. The whole poly vs lacquer thing is bull#### too, some may prefere lacquer but it doesnt sound any better.

I think the 65 TRRI is the best amp around, its perfectly suited to my needs and I've even tried expensive new and NOS tubes in it, it still sounds better with the stock Sovtek tubes,they happen to be the cheapest tubes too. The only other guys I know who use the TRRI is Sonic Youth.

I would recommend Gilmourish to get the 65 RI, its a great ####ign amp and IMO there is no better! (I like crystal clean amps and hate most tube distortion BTW, MESA amps and EHX tube dirt pedals excluded!)

Just dont get sucked into the whole "vintage everything must be better"...like they cant make good gear today! And if you do buy an older amp you should possibly be prepared to spend money on getting it re-tubed and re-capped and have no 5 year warranty. Depending on the situation.

But in the end you should say "#### what all you guys say" and test drive some amps for yourself and then YOU decide which is best for YOU!

StevieK

someone said: But in the end you should say "#### what all you guys say" and test drive some amps for yourself and then YOU decide which is best for YOU!

My RI Twin is somewhere between a 92-94. They may have tapered the pots better on some of the newer reissue models, I just know in my experience that on tube amps, if there's any output at all on 1 it's softer then a whisper.

Tone is a subjective thing, and if you want an absolutely clean amp I can see why you might prefer a reissue to an original 65 twin. The originals actually breakup a little more, and aren't nearly as bright and jangley as the RIs. A lot of people who like tube amps actually prefer this little bit of extra breakup and that's more than likely why the original's tone is preferred over the reissue. Plus the components were generally of higher quality on originals, the RIs use PCB, shoddy transformers, etc. Anywhere that Fender could cut corners on the RIs they did.

I would try some more amps before you hail the RI Twin as the king of clean (though many would probably agree with you), I actually prefer the cleans of Super Reverbs and VibroKings more. Also I wonder if you've ever had a chance to play any higher end amps like Dr Z, Fuchs, Divided by 13, Victoria, DaBeck or Two Rock? I'm fortunate living in Dallas, since it's the home of SRV there's a couple of really nice vintage guitar shops around here that carry high end gear and I go often to play and wank on the nicer boutique gear they sell.

And Nitro makes guitars a lot lighter and the body much more resonant then a similar poly finish with lacquered neck does. Try it for yourself!

Best advice really, tone has more to do with how you play then what you play.

Earth

I'm anti- boutique! I clone any boutique pedal I want , mainly on principal because of being anti-boutique. hence, a boutique amp is out of the question!.LOL

I do own one boutique pedal that I bought before I was 100% anti-boutique, the zvex woolly mammoth and I only bought that to reverse engineer and clone but I ended up just keeping it instead of selling it on ebay like I plannned to once I traced it.

Boutiquers are really just boo-tweakers who cant make anything original, they all rip off other peoples designs,goop them then claim originality. We, over at freestompboxes.org, have a saying, "if its gooped its a clone".

But not all boo-tweakers goop, in fact most dont. Even Zachary Vex is a bootweaker, you know the new mastotron? yeah well he claims he designed it from the basis of a classic jimi hendrix fuzz when in actuality its a clone, with a couple simple mods, of the chuck zwicky designed woolly mammoth, which incidentally is a tweaked clone of a fuzz face.

Same goes for the fuzz factory, its a heavily modified fuzz face.

Landgraff is a total rip, he sells one pedal that is a outright clone of the super hard on and TS808. There's that many TS808 clones out there we have an acronym for them, YATS, "yet another tube screamer".

When you have thousands of schematics and humdreds for all these "high end" pedals you see whats inside and can make comparisons and see where these "high end" pedals really originated.

I know a few boutique amp makers are doing the same thing, cloning fender,marshall etc and hiking up the price on the count of"higher quality" caps,resistors,PTP wiring, etc etc.

So I don't buy into boutique anything because I know from personal experience and experience from electronic engineer friends of mine that its all a load of sh!t!

The most expensive amps I've ever played was some MESA's. They kill any other amp as far as dirty amps go, the same for the TRRI for clean IMO.

I have a 1966Fender Mustang that's nitro with celluloid PG and unplugged, acoustically it doesnt really sound any different to a Fender Japan mustang.

The poly vs nitro thing IS bull####. The same goes for vintage jazzmasters/jaguars I've played compared to AVRI's.

ALL US made Fender AVRI guitars are poly anyways, they just have a thin clear coat of nitro over them, this is a verified fact straight from some guy on another forum that worked for fender. Email them, they'll tell you the same thing anyways.

And also not all vintage Fenders are nitro anyways, take the 70's ones for example, all poly yet they are still highly sought after...granted not as much as the 58 jazzmaster or 62 jaguar or 64 mustang but still highly desirable.

I prefer nitro bodies and poly necks because I like beat up bodies and nitro isn't half as durable as poly and I like a nice glossy poly neck.

BTW, the poly coat on my CIJ/US parts Jaguar is thin as anything, its far far from being thick.

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