Bought a 1966 was told all original. Is it?

sbeeb

Hey all, I just bought a 1966 mustang and was told it's all original but I have my doubts. The vibrato for one has a patent number on it and it was my understanding this should not be the case. Also after taking a look at the pickups one of them is a grey bottom with a penciled in date, the other is black bottom no date. Would this ever happen?

foxyloxy

Pictures might help.

HNB

If pickups don't match it is unlikely to be all original.

sbeeb

Having a tough time posting pics. Hopefully this works

http://www.flickr.co...N03/8381848257/

foxyloxy

it looks like it could be original. does the serial numbers match?

sbeeb

What serial numbers would I need to check? Would a vibrato with a pat number ever have made it to a 66? And why one grey and one black pickup? Seems odd

redman1401

theyre both black, ones just a bit more rusted, that happens sometimes.

sbeeb

The top one is grey and I can read a penciled on date. The bottom one is certainly black.

Doug

Sbeeb, glad yer askin for help... Lotsa knowledgable Mustang musicians here. And congratulations on your new vintage Daphne Blue prize!

If yer certain the pups are two different colors, I'd be concerned. The one with the date says 1966, I take it. I can ask what may be helpful questions but I'm no expert...

Some pieces of black tape seem almost new, like work's been done on both pups' wiring in the past few years. Does it look that way to you?

When you say "vibrato" do you mean the silver roller tube itself, the plate to which it's mounted, or the arm you attach to operate the mechanism? If you narrow it down, I can look at my '65 and see what I have.

What does the seller say when you ask them about your concerns?

Cheers,

Doug

HNB

He means the tremolo plate the tube is mounted through. Under fender it can have a pat number or be stamped pat pending.

Doug

HNB said:
He means the tremolo plate the tube is mounted through. Under fender it can have a pat number or be stamped pat pending.

Haven't looked at mine in two months (I'm workin out of town) and actually won't see it again til Feb. 3... 😢 ...but that location does sound familiar. I have checked in the past but so long ago, I don't recall for sure if my 1965 has a pat. # or "pending".

Sbeeb, if you don't get answer on this thread soon, begin another thread with the topic: Mustang vibrato patent nos.

Cheers,

HNB

The problem is reissue Japanese mustangs have the pat version and the pat pending version so that can be tricky too. The Japanese spring posts are metric threaded vs us standard like American mustang tremolos though.

Mad-Mike

I own a 1966 that's almost all original save for the paint, one tuner, and the vibrato bar.

My Mustang

- I have 2 Gray Bobbin pickups like the one in your guitar, pencil dated 6-1-1966 5.19K (Bridge) and 5.32K (Neck)

- Patent Pending Vibrato Unit, Rocker Bridge with STEEL saddles (I'm not sure if Fender ever used Brass on the vintage guitars)

Now, there is a possibility that he has a transitional guitar. A lot of guitars from 1964 through 1966 had various oddball differences on them (heck, I'm wondering if the crazy headstock on Kurt Coban's Jaguar is a part of that). Leo sold the company as demand was starting to get high, and they were backordered on the Mustang, so it's possible there are a lot of "Weirdoes" out there in the Fender student category (Mustangs with Pre CBS and CBS era parts mixed, including pickups). Fender generally just threw the parts in the bin (even the serial/neckplates), so things can be pretty random. I used to have a poster for a transition era Stratocaster with the 11 screw pickguard but a pre-CBS headstock and CBS parts elsewhere.

I'm thinking if it is original it's likely an early 66' Mustang, mine's mid 66' at the oldest (from pickup dates). I always find these transition guitars rather neat.

redman1401

Mad-Mike said:
A lot of guitars from 1964 through 1966 had various oddball differences on them (heck, I'm wondering if the crazy headstock on Kurt Coban's Jaguar is a part of that).

Well from what his tech said, its generally believed that the headstock on his jag was an aftermarket one, due to the fact it was a strat headstock, with the "strat style" jaguar decal.

Theres a few occasions where you have those transitional guitars, such as my jagstang which is that transitional period between the crafted in and made in japan, or some strats i've seen that were made in japan but also made in the US so no ones sure what it is. I do agree that the transitional ones are interesting.

BrokenRecord

1st I'll stay on topic..... the mustang definately seems NOT 100% original. The clear give away is indeed the tape/heat shrink over what could only be cut and resoldered wires. Let's say you're an installer or warranty repair tech at Fender in 1966..... you solder to stock wiring all day long. Why cut the main leads and the one pickup only to go thru the trouble to "neat it back up" with tape or heat shrink tubing, why not just solder to the jack and switches like they'd be doing all day long anyway? The question answers itself. That being said, like all things in life... Sh*t happens..... and pickups fail from time to time. Any novice with a soldering iron could do what i saw in the pictures. Now as to whether that repair was done last year or 1968, 1975 or whenever, maybe even under an offsite "fender service center", well that's entirely up to speculation. It's true that fender did let a lot of things slip out that just shouldn't be..... officially anyway, but it happened. But this one photo shows all the signs of POST factory repair. In the end, if you have a 66 mustang with one newer (whenever) pickup, and it plays, sounds, and looks great...... then 95% original is not bad..... not bad at all. Enjoy it for what it is.

2nd A little off topic.... but what is a transition Jag-Stang? The whole "MIJ" and "CIJ" was soley logistical semantics. From what I gather, FugiGen had it in their contract that any other guitars manufactured for Fender by another Japanese factory would NOT carry the "MADE IN JAPAN" stamp, to effectively set a divide between one Japanese companies product from another. Simply creating a "signature" for their units for easy mass market recognition without writing FujiGen on it. Once the production contract ended and Fender signed with another factory, legally they were still bound to relabelling the next phase of Japanese instruments. They could have labelled it "BUILT BY GODZILLA IN JAPAN", just as long as it didn't say "Made in Japan". One of the key components of the FujiGen contract was that they stop making the Tokai line, since that was a serious threat to Fender for years. That condition was officially loop holed recently, hence newer guitars carrying the Bold Stamp "Made In Japan" by the third official japanese factory. So my point would have to be..... What's a transition Jag-Stang? One manufacturer didn't give their remaining inventory of a discontinued line to another manufacturer who could potentially diminish their original product, especially in Japan. My boss was instrumental in bringing Yamaha to the U.S., and one thing that's clear from conversations, is the Japanese do not Fu*k around when it comes to respecting a company and/or product. So the concept of a "transition" Jag-Stang is lost on me. There's a MIJ and CIJ. No in between as far as i know. I could be wrong. Hell, Fender and Fender Japan aren't even the same companies technically, what does that tell ya!

3rd A little more off topic......The neck on Cobains Jaguar...... The neck itself is a Fender neck. Given that the guitar was heavily modified professionally, what stops a talented luthier who routed the body, cut a new control plate for the toggle and such, and then strung it for righty, from shaving down the CBS style arch to a strat size, slapping some varnish on it, and throwing a custom "aftermarket logo" on the head stock, as opposed to the neck being completely after market, or a headstock, which doesn't really fly. I've read on a few occasions that Kurt and Ernie would argue between it being a 65 or a 66, since the guitar had components of both years. And since the original pickups are gone, the only possible dates left on the guitar are the pots, neck plate and neck stamp. If the neck were entirely after market, then the ONLY dates left on the guitar would be the serial on the plate and the date codes on the pots, if even they were left original during the mod. I believe the neck was discussed in the KC Jaguar booklet where Fender states that the neck was indeed a Fender, but they can't absolutely explain the headstock.....

Then again.... I could be wrong on everything..... "TRUE KNOWLEGDE IS KNOWING THAT YOU KNOW NOTHING"

redman1401

While using the crafted in and made in was a way to distinguish them, and there were scattered "crafted in", they didn't actually do that mass produced until 98, and my jag-stang has a 96-97 serial number, with the crafted in which was mainly started in 97-98 on the official dating system by fender.