JS Intonation impossible, what to do?

Nimbus

Is it normal that you can't get perfect intonation to a Jag-Stang with 11-52 string set?

I've modded it some time ago. Made it a "hardtail" by flipping the tailpiece so the strings run straight through it (not under it):

http://koti.mbnet.fi/sqxo/gfx/jsmod03.jpg

I've also shimmed the bridge to the bridge pots to make it more solid, and I did it in an eccentric way to lenghten the low E and to shorten the high E string, to help the intonation:

http://koti.mbnet.fi/sqxo/gfx/jsmod07.jpg

The action is pretty high, maybe even too much, but I wanted to minimize the buzzes. The low E end of the bridge is much higher than the high E end:

http://koti.mbnet.fi/sqxo/gfx/jsmod04.jpg

So, like the header says, the problem is intonation. I get most of the strings intonated alright, but the low E sucks cause I run out of space when moving the saddle:

http://koti.mbnet.fi/sqxo/gfx/jsmod02.jpg

It's already in the "longest string" position, but the E from the 12th fret is still about 1/4 step sharp. I even had to cut the saddle screw shorter because in addition to the saddle, also the screw was toucing the string:

http://koti.mbnet.fi/sqxo/gfx/jsmod05.jpg Don't ask, the "paper" under the saddles is piece of a engine gasket to minimize possible saddle noises. 🙄

Is there something I could do to get it intonated or should I leave it like it is? 😕

Rick

i can't understand how that E intonation screw would fret the string off infront of it. with a jaguar saddle, i could. but not with a mustang saddle. maybe it's because you pushed the bridge back, instead of having it in the centre position.

i would take the bridge out, wrap the posts with insulation tape so that the bridge doesn't sway. the card between the bridge pins and the bushing will also mean the guitar strings aren't grounded. take them out. then i would put the trem bar back the normal way. the angle you've got there just isn't good enough, imo. i would get 11-50 strings, as the thicker the E string is, the further back the saddle will need to go.

i would make sure the pickups had the specified clearance distance. if you have the pickups too close, the magnets can cause false tones. i would make sure the action was not too high as well. if you have it too high, you could actually end up bending the string when you depress it at the 12th fret.

i know i'm judging your intonation by sight here. but it just looks wrong to me. you do know you're suppose to play the open string, and match the note when FRETTED at the 12th, don't you? alot of people sometimes think that you match it to the harmonic at the 12th. but in actual fact, the harmonic at the 12th is always the same as the tone of the open string

echelon

Rick said:
i know i'm judging your intonation by sight here. but it just looks wrong to me. you do know you're suppose to play the open string, and match the note when FRETTED at the 12th, don't you? alot of people sometimes think that you match it to the harmonic at the 12th. but in actual fact, the harmonic at the 12th is always the same as the tone of the open string

he already said it is strung with 11s!

i set my intonation by comparing the 12th fret harmonic to the 12th fret fretted note with a quartz based tuner. the notes should ideally be identical, so it's the best way to do it.

As for the original question - it's obvious the intonation cant be set because your low E is too high. The higher a string is, the further back the saddle must be.

Raising the action should NEVER be done to eliminate buzzing - it should only be done for tone/feel purposes. If your string still buzzes it means you need to adjust the truss rod or the angle of the neck, or level the frets. I say take it to a professional.

Rick

echelon said: Raising the action should NEVER be done to eliminate buzzing - it should only be done for tone/feel purposes. If your string still buzzes it means you need to adjust the truss rod or the angle of the neck, or level the frets..

i know. he said he'd used 11-52. i said he might be better using 11-50

i know. i said that some people compare the open note to the harmonic. i agree, you can just as easily use the harmonic instead of the open string. because they are always the same

i don't agree. i think you can adjust the action a little higher to cut out on fretbuzz. though i agree that the neck should be bowed 1mm away from the string fretted at first and last, as standard

Nimbus

Rick said: i don't agree. i think you can adjust the action a little higher to cut out on fretbuzz

Sorry my english isn't perfect, you mean the saddle screw that started pointing up and got in touch with the low E string? It's some time since I modded my guitar, but if I remember it right, the screw might have gotten bent a bit because I tightened it too damn hard and that's part of the reason why it touched the string. I also think I removed the spring between the bridge and the saddle to be able to get the saddle more to the back, and when the saddle gets really back, it starts lifting the screw because the holes in the bridge are a bit lower than in the saddle.

No! No taping! 😆 For now, I think it's better this way, but if I get the intonation working, I might consider putting the bridge straight. Using some washers or else, but no tape! I hate that gluey mess it leaves behind when removed.. 😕

Well, I thought that the contact from strings via saddles via screws to the bridge would reach, but I'll think about that.

I've thought about this too, maybe i shoud give it a try! Then I could lower the action too maybe and get the thing intonated.

I wouldn't like to do this, cause I've found the Dean Markley strings pretty long lasting and they're priced ok too, and they don't have string sets even near to 11-50 (I use 2505B or 2507B sets): http://www.deanmarkley.com/Strings/Elec ... elEl.shtml

A good one again! I didn't really think about this when setting the pickup height.. Gotta check this one. Can you tell me the height they should be in?

This might be happening now, but I thought I had to do it to get rid of low strings buzzing. I have also filed the white plastic "saddle" near the top of the neck of the guitar ( http://koti.mbnet.fi/sqxo/gfx/fjs05.jpg ), because when I had my guitar tuned to standard E, the 1st fret of low E was 1/4 step sharp F, and I wanted it to be closer to F. This might have added to the buzzing, even though I was careful not to overdo it. But the E string fretted at the 1st should be F, not flat or sharp, right? 😕 Is it sharp or flat on your Jag-Stang? Should I have not touched this one?

Yes, I'm fretting it at the 12th! And yes, I can count to 12 and also read the marks at the neck to find the 12th fret! But thanks for checking.. 😆

Thanks, good to know this one. That must be the reason then. I don't think this crossed my mind either when setting up my guitar.. I gotta do something about it then!

I think it can be like Rick wrote, but I must have overdone this one quite a bit. Because of a few comments I got, this might be too much height for strings? http://koti.mbnet.fi/sqxo/gfx/jsmod08.jpg Hey, it's just a few millimeters! 😆

Is there any guide anywhere for adjusting the truss rod or neck angle? Or could anyone give some advice? And how to know if I need to do so? I like to learn to do things by myself. I know taking it to a pro would get it right too, but that's the last option.

Generally, when changing to heavier strings, how should the truss rod and neck angle be changed? I changed from approx. 10-46 strings (or some 9s, I'm not sure what they were?) to 11-52s, and I'm not sure if I did anything to the truss rod or neck angle.

Aug

Here's what you do:

1. Reverse all those mods. They are useless.

2. Lower the bridge, that action is insane.

3. Check your neck bow, you may need to make a truss rod adjustment or shim the neck.

4. Make sure the strings are not binding on the nut (Jag-stang nuts were not cut to handle larger size strings, and are nothing more than plastic crap.)

5. Ensure the bridge stays in the center position when tuning.

6. Intonate. Retune each string after making any and all adjustments.

If you don't know what I'm talking about, or are unsure how to do this, please take that guitar in to a guitar tech and ask for a new bone nut and setup. You'll thank me later.

echelon

sqxo said:
I think it can be like Rick wrote, but I must have overdone this one quite a bit. Because of a few comments I got, this might be too much height for strings? http://koti.mbnet.fi/sqxo/gfx/jsmod08.jpg Hey, it's just a few millimeters! 😆

HOLY ####!

please tell me that photo is photoshopped! jesus, action should only ever be that high on a slide guitar!

with that and the new thicker strings, you must need fingers like The Hulk just to play a chord! 😆

seriously, lower the action and elimate buzzes the proper way - your truss rod will need adjusting with the new strings. i still say take it to a pro.

Zekk

sqxo said:
I think it can be like Rick wrote, but I must have overdone this one quite a bit. Because of a few comments I got, this might be too much height for strings? http://koti.mbnet.fi/sqxo/gfx/jsmod08.jpg Hey, it's just a few millimeters! 😆

On my Tun-o-matic guitars my action is just slightly, slightly, below that. And on my strat saddel type guitar its a lot lower, but the truss rod i s####ed.

Nimbus

echelon said: with that and the new thicker strings, you must need fingers like The Hulk just to play a chord!

I disagree. JB is better humbucker than the original, should I change that mod? Hardtail suits for me 'cause I don't need any vibrato, I'll bend the strings if I need some. Shimming the bridge isn't a bad idea to keep the guitar in tune, doing it eccentric isn't probably needed if the guitar is set up right (like the height of the action). Changing the tailpiece back to normal ways sounds ok but I still want it to be hardtail.

Yes, that I am going to do.

I was looking for some kind of advice for this, even better if there's example pictures for this. In what part and how much should the neck curve? I'd really like to get it work with these strings I like.

Yes, earlier I wrote that I've filed it to suit for the thicker strings. Just called it plastic "saddle" because I didn't know the right word..

Sounds ok but won't work without modding a. ka. shimming it stationary. 😆

As usually. 😀

I'll think about it later, if I can't get this right, but I like to learn things. I don't need to get it perfect at the first try, I can always set it up again.

Well, I've played it for a year like this in standard E tune and another year in D tune. Mostly I use normal E5, D5 etc whatevertheyarecalled, "power-chords"? I don't see my fingers as big as Hulks ones.. 🙄

Doog

I just skimmed this post, so sorry if I'm repeating someone, but have you considered taking the spring off the intonation adjustment screw?

All it does is add a bit of force so the saddle will move forward (toward the neck) easier when adjusting- not something you'll need to be doing by the sounds of it.

Removing the spring should give you a mm or 2 more space to move the saddle backward and hopefully intonate it correctly.

Nimbus

Doog said: I just skimmed this post, so sorry if I'm repeating someone, but have you considered taking the spring off the intonation adjustment screw?

Thanks for the idea, but as I recall I've done it already. (My guitar isn't here where I'm writing this just now and I did the mods couple of years ago, so I'm not 100% sure.)

By the bits of laughter and some panic-like reactions caused by the picture of my Jag-Stang's action height, I think I'll correct that problem first and probably get it intonated correctly after the action is closer to normal height. 🙄